Socially Norm
Many were offended by my comments about being too embarrassed to bring the character of Kurt to meet my Mama or take him to a football game. Let's talk about that.
Can we agree with the following statement? To be accepted in society and get along well with others, we follow a set of written and unwritten rules of appropriate values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviors. In Sociology, we call this social norms.
Loudly bragging about that big dick you sucked right next to a family with small children would violate a social norm. Similarly, dropping your trousers and pooping on a public beach in broad daylight would also violate a social norm. Social norms govern our behavior so we can get along with each other as best as we can.
When I bring anyone over for Thanksgiving Dinner with my family, for example, I make a conscience decision of who I invite. They are expected to dress and act appropriately. It's important for me to not make my family feel uncomfortable.
Would I feel comfortable bringing someone over that wanted to kiss me in front of my family? What if they wanted to dress in drag or wear their best leather? Honestly, no... I would not feel comfortable.
On the same note, I would not want to bring someone to a football game that wanted to make it a point to lovingly kiss me in front of others to shock all the hetero people in attendance. Or do their best Men on Film impression and scream, "Gurl! All these menses with their tight pantsss on... they can tackle me anytime... they get two swirls and a double snap!" We are there with 93,000 fans to cheer for the LSU Tigers... not satisfy your sexual urges or fight a culture war.
Which comes to my point. If you live in California and want to smooch on your assless chap leather clad boyfriend in a sparsely attended stadium... FINE. You are a brave soul that is on the forefront of fighting the culture war.
As for me, my preference is to assimilate more conservatively in my community. I am proudly OUT OF THE CLOSET, but I do not make a spectacle of myself. Well, except for on here perhaps...
posted by Brettcajun at Monday, November 29, 2010
33 Comments:
Sounds like fear to me. That's a healthy thing as long as you are not actually comparing non-assimilating gays to taking a poop in public. It's okay for you to hide behind your butch persona; not so much for others.
You know, the more you talk, the more I question, wonder, and think.....about you. And thinking of your definition of social norms, I would almost, nearly, not place you in the realm of your definition. Weird, but true. And then I read this sentence:
"When I bring anyone over for Thanksgiving Dinner with my family, for example, I make a conscience decision of who I invite. They are expected to dress and act appropriately. It's important for me to not make my family feel uncomfortable."
Really? Wow. It's THAT important for your family to come above people being themselves? I'm afraid that I may not be invited for dinner. And that's fine. At least I'm honest, about me, about who I am. Even if the Prejeans don't think so. I can live with that.
I have already personally met you A Lewis. You are fine as long as you don't come to dinner in nothing but your Undie Monday clothes. That wouldn't be socially acceptable... for dinner. ;)
Let's see if we can clarify your statements here a bit.
I think we can all agree on the "dick sucking" and "beach pooping" comments. Those are red herrings designed to distract.
When you say you make a "conscience" decision (is that a Freudian slip? I assume you meant "conscious" decision, but that could be a telling indication you feel guilty about this), you expect people to dress and act appropriately. Agreed. Drag and leather are costumes, and costumes are not appropriate for a Thanksgiving Day dinner (unless it's a costume party dinner).
But then you move into the "someone that wanted to kiss me in front of my family" realm. Really... Did Bart's girlfriend (before they married) not get to kiss him in front of the family? How about now that they're married? What about other siblings, spouses, etc.?
Or are you saying it's okay for heteros to kiss in front of family, but not a committed gay couple? If that's what you're saying, then you're a homophobic bigot.
Or are you saying YOU would be okay with it, but your family would not? In that case, your family are the homophobic bigots, and you're enabling them by not calling them on their bullshit.
Standards of behavior are fine. When those standards are applied unequally between gays and straights, then that's not about standards - that's about homophobia. Period. End of Discussion. That point isn't even debatable and you cannot defend it to any rational person.
I find it interesting that even though you claim to be openly gay, you keep referring to this unknown person you might bring over as "they" - a gender-neutral, plural pronoun that doesn't even fit ("they" is for more than one person). You can't even bring yourself to type "What if HE wanted to....". Don't you hear the homophobia right there?
Likewise on the football game crap: Do you hold straight couples to the same standard? Should every frat boy who kisses his sorority girlfriend during the game be hassled by everyone around them?
You object to "Men on Film impressions", but I've seen you at football games, and your fake butch "HUUHHNNNNNHHHHH!!!!!" crap is just as much of an act and as embarrassing (to some) as somewhat effeminate behavior seems to be to you. How YOU choose to cheer for a team and how someone ELSE chooses to cheer for the team are choices each of you can make for yourselves.
More to the point, there's a difference between intrusive behavior like pooping on a beach (which affects everyone else directly) and personal behavior that people have a right to do. If you don't like it, the solution is NOT to beat them up, NOT to make it so uncomfortable that they stay home, but to look the other direction.
Notice that the ONLY bad effect for you, if YOU were to embrace the fact that people are different and accept the "different" individual, would be that SOME people - bigots themselves - would look down on you for it. And that's the core of the problem: you're so fucking insecure that you can't stand it that some "normal" (read: bigots) might look down on you, so you (like Karofsky) act out to "prove" you're not like that. You call it "assimilate more conservatively into my community"; I call it covering up who you are because you're embarrassed to admit it.
That's not "out and proud" - "out and proud" means you're willing to stand up and acknowledge who you are everywhere, not just when you're on the corner of Bourbon and St. Ann.
@Kevin
I tell you what... let's go visit your Mama. We'll hold hands and give each other big smooches on her couch.
No? You can't? Why not? Oh yeah... is that because you NOT out to your family? (GASP!)
I was brave enough to come out to my family 13 years ago. When I asked you about coming out, you told me that your family surely knows, but you have never talked about it. Why is that Kevin? Are you not secure with your sexuality? Are you ashamed about being gay? Why haven't YOU come out to your family? Hmmm... ?
CHECKMATE. You are no better than a preacher secretly having gay sex yet who preaches against sodomy on the pulpit.
Well, in any non-urban areas in the U.S., social norms don't normally include homos. It is a sad fact.
Here's my take on Brett's stance: he's a bit more rurally located than some of us, and some of those settings are less than welcoming of who we are. I also don't work in my family business so life in smaller setting like that has many repercussions.
Yes, there are people who like to instigate and say anything in any public setting just to get a reaction. Ok, maybe not the pooping thing (ewww), but def on the sex discussions.
But to the 'stand up and be out and proud everywhere' isn't always pragmatic. Great in theory. I'm not sure we can all be (or should be) advocates. We do all not have the same agenda.
And do we not all have our preferences - social norms or otherwise: be it age, race, weight, hairy/smooth, masc/fem or hair colour?
No one is advocating violence here (not really), but so Brett doesn't like a faction of human being or human acting. Do we all like everyone? I don't.
The irony isn't lost on me that so many are hating on a blogger for how he presents himself.
Wasn't that what got him in so much hot water in the first place?
Brett, man.....I could not AGREE with you more....and feel the EXACT same way. There are many of us out there that must fit into society in a comfortable format and in order to do that, social standards must be upheld in whatever function there is, whether it is a football game or dinner with the family. So I totally understand.
When you invite someone over to your house, you should be most concerned about how comfortable the guest feels. I would hope that your parents feel the same way. Why wouldn't you want someone you love or care about to just be themselves. Isn't that what you love and care about them the most anyway?
What are you afraid of? I understand you are very close with your parents, but why are you so dead set on changing yourself and hiding your friends from them just to make your family comfortable?
I called you an asshole in a previous comment from your post the other day that I assume was denied and I'm sorry for writing that. Your life and how you choose to live it is complicated and looks like a mess. All of this drama kind of makes sense to me now.
Just be yourself and let others be who they are. If someone thinks bad of you because of someone you hang out with, it is their problem. You'd be a better person to support those who live their life without worry of what others think of them and you'd probably learn a thing or two.
Jeremy
@Jeremy
Thank you for the apology. I appreciate it.
I work for my family's business and live on the family horse farm in my own home. We are a tight family unit, so I have to do my best maintain that harmony. My family has accepted the fact that I am gay. I am very grateful and do my best to make it not a big deal.
I'm new here and am flabbergasted by the lambasting you've received over your blog comments. If I may, I'd like to put my two cents in:
First...it's YOUR blog. You apparently have no problem posting controversial opinions, which is what it is all about. I used to worry about what others thought of my blathering. It shouldn't matter to anyone but you. Keep up the good work in that regard.
Second, I understand your comments about social norms and the person being brought to the family table. (And for the record, the absence of a specific gender does NOT make it homophobic.) I, too, would carefully select who I would invite because there's enough stress around family gatherings without there being offenses taken or given.
I came out to my parents 20 years ago. They didn't accept it very well but they didn't disown me either. But we don't talk about it. And never will. And that's why I don't take anyone "home" to meet the parents. It's a self-preservation thing; for myself, for whomever I'm dating, and for my parents. Just because we are gay doesn't mean we have to flaunt it. Everyone at my family's table acts with respect to everyone else. And that is something I didn't see in others' comments: respect. We all need to respect each other and act within those social guidelines with which we were raised.
I guess I'm trying to say that I totally get you and your point and I agree. Thanks for letting me say that.
Behr Hugs!
VERY WELL SAID Behrmark. Thank you.
Brett -
just wanted to tell ya that i really enjoy your blog. It's great to hear from other gay men that don't suffer fools easily.
-Best regards, Jake (cwbyswallower@yahoo.com)
First, I am sorry for being a snarky bitch last night :) I had a few drinks, got fired up, and it's never a good thing for me. This I know, and I should have known better than to go online. It's why I've banned myself from politic talks or commenting on my local newspapers website :) I honestly am a quiet and non confrontational guy. However I also hold too much in, it builds up, then I explode.
What you evoked in me (and my guess many others) was the feeling of not being accepted, and of having to conform to be accepted, or worse, tolerated. I like others tried to be straight, it didn't work :) I tried to conform to the idea of the typical american male to seem less gay than I clearly was (but at the time myself didn't want to accept). It was hard work and tiring trying not to talk with my hands, or constantly have to police my speech in fear I might say something that sounded gay. Once I finally came out, I just decided that if people couldn't accept me for who and what I was the way I was, then that was their loss and not mine. Very little changed about me. I didn't start dressing or acting any differently than I did before, I was just able to stop worrying that people might think I was gay, because I was and I was open about it.
The reality is there are a whole lot of people in the world who won't accept us because we are gay. No amount of marches or public shocking kisses or butt chap wearing will change their minds. Some people also have the fortune of living in more accepting and tolerant areas than others. That is why for many the gay community is an important aspect. It's a place where you can be yourself and be accepted. It's a place where you don't have to conform to the social norms of others, even if just for a bit.
However the gay community has divided itself into all these niches, and many are based on how we act or who we are attracted to. Unfortunately many of us have become non accepting of each other now based on these niches. Case in point, I have a goth/twink friend who has a bear fetish and loves to go into the local bear bar. Every time we do, they look at him like "what the hell are you doing here?" Then they look at me like "why the hell are you with him?" There are enough people in the world that aren't going to accept us simply because we are gay, therefore it's a sad day when gay people aren't going to accept other gay people because they perceive them to be "the wrong kind of gay."
As for the social norms of the world at large, we all conform to those, gay or straight. There are appropriate places to wear certain clothes, where to show affection (and how much), etc etc etc. However I think what is important is that we not conform to the point that we've conformed ourselves back into the closet. If we are conforming to the point that we don't talk or deal with the gay thing to make other's more comfortable, than that is just what we've done.
In my family, one of my mother's cousins (I think, I can never keep all the relatives straight) is a big ole lesbian. Everyone knows it, but it has always been something that nobody ever talked about at get-togethers. I think for a long time it made some of the older members of our family uncomfortable. So we never talked about it, even though everyone knows she's lived with a woman for over 20 years. She wears a wedding ring, but nobody dared to speak about who the other half was, and she played along quietly. At every family function, she comes alone. I don't think even to this day I have meet her partner, nor has most of our family. To me, that is sad. If anyone in my family made it known that me bringing my boyfriend around made them uncomfortable and they'd rather I not, I'd tell them then neither of us will come around. However my guess is before I could, my mother would unleash holy hell on them :)
(Sorry if this goes through twice, I keep getting some odd Google URI error when I submit)
Brett,
Unfortunately, your information is a little out of date. I told my family many years ago, when I had a reason to tell them (which was that I had a partner I wanted to bring by for them to meet, and bring him to a family function).
I have no problem kissing my partner in front of my parents the same way my sisters kiss their husbands.
These are things you'd know if you ever asked about other people instead of making everything about you.
Blobby:
Nobody is saying Brett has to like anyone or everyone.
Many of us ARE saying that everyone should be treated with respect. Moreover, he HAS advocated and endorsed violence, and he can't back away from that. (He can say he was wrong, but that is a word not in his vocabulary when applied to himself.)
Where Brett lives was rural at one time. It's suburban now, and he works in a reasonably urban area. It's not Deliverance country. Regardless, it's fine if he feels being "out and proud" would put him in danger or if it would isolate him from his family, but then he shouldn't claim that's what he is. You want the title, you have to earn it.
And we are not hating on him for how he presents himself. We are pointing out morally reprehensible attitudes and behaviors. There's a world of difference.
Behrmark:
With respect, I'm really sorry you don't seem to get it. You're accepting second-class status from your family - YOUR FAMILY - in the interests of maintaining contact with them. If any of your brothers or sisters could bring home a date of the opposite sex without challenge, but you can't bring home a boyfriend, then your family is sending you a clear message: they do not believe you are as good as they are.
Your response to that, of course, is your own business. For myself, I can't imagine wanting to spend any precious holiday time with anyone who considered me inferior. Life's too short for that for me.
(And yes, of course Brett can express his opinions on whatever he wants. That doesn't mean he's free from challenge, especially when it's an issue of morals, especially when the post comes from someone with such a noted inflated sense of self importance.)
DUDE! The first rule of getting out of the whole you've dug for yourself is to STOP DIGGING!
I don't back away from a good fight... especially when I am right.
Yep...large hole digging. Reached China yet?
Brett,
When I first read the post which started this fire storm, I was shocked, outraged, ready to fire off a seething comment. But I decided to sit back and rationally think about what you wrote. Then you just kept writing (digging large hole).
What part of this is a "good fight"?
The simple fact is, you advocate violence.
Furthermore, I get the feeling you like all the attention this has garned. It fuels your narcissism.
In closing, I do hope one day you can accept ALL gay men.
Interesting that you associate being kissed by your boyfriend in front of other people (family, strangers) with crapping on a public beach.
So how many years would you have to date someone before you would feel comfortable kissing them in front of your folks? Are there actually gay men who would put up with that shit?
LOL. Homer please... I know you wouldn't kiss another man in front of your Mama.
These posts have been the funniest shit I have read in a while. I can't believe y'all fell for the Cajun's little setup. Thanks for the entertainment.
Oh, and I have kissed my partner in front of my mother. Her last phone message she left for me before she died is still on my answering machine. In it she sends her love to my partner and her four legged grandkids, our dogs.
enough said.
How big of a kiss? A peck or a big mouth to mouth smooch?
Could your partner have slept over in a bed with you at your Mama's house?
Actually Brett, my mom has seen me kiss boyfriends (and friends) in front of her.
And...? How did she react? Was she pissed or upset? I am just curious... my Mom would get nervous.
What a hypocrite and I have the videos to prove it!!!
I have met the family and they are actually lovely people...well except for the father and twin.
So when you are prancing around the French Quarter it's ok to behave "gay" however, when in St Amant you have to be butch.
Who are you trying to convince the people on your Blog who really do not know you or yourself?
Brett: "Anonymous" and "Kevin T" give new meaning to the phrase "Bitchy Queen". Are they good friends of your's ? They can sure dish it out, but I bet they'd be singing a different tune if confronted in person. They sure talk big when they can hide behind the anonymity of the Internet.
Ummm...sorry - the word was supposed to be "hole" not "whole". You see what you've done to my typing skills Brett!!!! LOL
Apparently, the title of the prior blog entry -- "Final Thoughts" -- was a misnomer.
But in any event, I have mixed thoughts about all of this. First of all, I've seen you out and about; I've seen your blog videos; I've heard you speak. Not to be mean, but you're not exactly the butchiest guy around.
Second, I sort of get what you're saying. I do think there's a time and place for everything, and I do think that polite people should avoid, to the extent reasonably possible, making people around them feel uncomfortable. I'm not comfortable when people around me are uncomfortable. That's the reason why I get fidgety when people -- gay, straight, or otherwise -- engage in behavior that those around them question. But I don't think it's something I have against the people themselves; it's just a matter of knowing your surroundings and acting appropriately.
And I don't respect the "screw them; I'll do what I want and if they don't like it they can leave" mentality. It's selfish, and like it or not, it's not how the world works.
And that's my two cents.
You are WRONG. I am manly butch. Now, bend over and take it like a man.
Maybe you're not gay - you're just homosexual.
WHOOAAA....Did I read correctly....? Brett Cajun has an evil twin???? That is HOT. Are you butch like him? Or is that a different kind of butch? This blog has sooo many twists and turns....best melodrama on the air! Granted not as good as Walking Dead (maybe you should add some redneck zombies -- hot!) By the way...what ever happened to 'Mr Wonderful' Tim? Was he written out of the 'Brett Cajun Show'? I can't help but wonder what his take on the past few blog posts would be. Looking forward to the next Tales From the Farm.
Late to the party and didn't read the original post people seem to be referring to, so I'm just reacting to social norms.
Life is filled with choices of whether or not to conform to what we perceive are the accepted norms. I don't always profess to understand in the moment the choices I make, nor am I going to go bat crazy on someone who makes different choices than me.
It's one thing to raise questions about another person's decision-making process and to try and understand their responses. It's quite another I think to project your own situation as universal truth that others should submit to.
Post a Comment
<< Home